Curse

Regulus X · May 26, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Say what? Blind = 90% miss (not block) >>>>>> 75% block any day.

There are so many options to take out an E/Me Mind Blaster with. I listed them earlier in the thread. Shattering Assault takes out Mind Blasters with little problems. So does Backfire / VoR. Strip Enchant. Power Block. Caster damage. Even Magebane Shot can force the Elementalist to play more conservatively. What's stopping you from running them? If you are so convinced of an E/Me Mind Blaster's invulnerability, why don't you try it in RA where build variety is such that the counters to you do exist?

Anything that beats balanced must be overpowered. True / false?

Far as I can tell, your answer to the above question is true (you even alluded to it: "if you're running balanced ... "). My answer however is an empathic no, as, I bet, would be yours when faced with a blunt question like this one instead of dressed up in the guise of E/Me's.

What do you call this:

14 Air, 13 Energy Storage

Blinding Flash
Lightning Orb
Lightning Hammer
Enervating Charge
Aura of Restoration
Air Attunement
Elemental Attunement
Res Sig

Let's see: more damage than E/Me Mind Blasters ... check. More defense than E/Me Mind Blasters ... also check. Ability to outnuke E/Me Mind Blasters ... present. Ability to defend your teammates from opponent physicals ... yup, there as well. Superoverpowered and ruining PvP ... nope.

Explain. The way I see it, the above build isn't overpowered because the tools to counter it (DShot Elemental Attunement) already exists in the metagame, while the tools to counter E/Me Mind Blasters (as listed above) do not.

Blind can be removed far easier than distortion. i.e.: Foul Feast, Draw, Mending Touch, Restore Condition, Weapon of Remedy, Dismiss Conditions, Smite Conditions, Antidote Signet.. (need I keep going?) Now, let's take a look at stance removal shall we? (Whirling Axe *must charge adrenaline 1st buddy.. kthnxbai*, Wild Blow *severe drawbacks as war, must staple to Sins, Dervs, RaO's, etc..*, Wild Strike *must have sin + lead attack and build won't be as good in dps..*, and that paragon stance-removing skill *still requires 7 adrenaline buddy, moar than Wh.Axe.. kthnxbai*, what else..?)

And You got it all wrong: Anything that beats "Everything" is OP'd. Balanced simply implies a little bit of every profession, but you're very limited in 4v4 (1-2 frontline) format whereas 8v8 has more room for caster pressure to topple onto a 2-3 frontline without losing out on dps. If anything's OP'd, the vast majority's going to glue it onto everything (i.e.: E/Me x 3-5 GvG/HA; E/Me x 2-3 TA/RA*syncs*, etc..). It's brainlessly easy to cast spells while being nearly immune to physicals. Basically, you'd have to staple Magebane and Wh.Axe to your team to defeat these bad E/Me players (or hope that mindless E/Me's are so bad that they forget to spam Distortion/Mindblast enough).

And with that air build you prescribed, there's all them condition removals *listed above* for your blind while melee CHOO-CHOO-TRAIN you becuz noes OP'd *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* is present/accounted for! That's why in 8v8, so many players run to their E/Me's.. prolly better than Aegis anyway, and Meteor=>M.Blast=>Immolate=>Distortion=>M.Blast=>Di stortionM.Blast=>Distortion=>ImmolateM.Blast=>Dist ortionM.Blast=>Distortion their way to victory every time OP'd-Style.

lutz · May 26, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Blinding Flash
Lightning Orb
Lightning Hammer
Enervating Charge
Aura of Restoration
Air Attunement
Elemental Attunement
Res Sig

Actually, the Mind Blast bar does around the same damage as that bar. Immolate does around the same damage as Lightning Orb and Lightning Hammer. You also are lacking a speed boost and knock, and orb requires line of sight.

You also rely on one skill that needs to be cast to stay alive. If you get your BFlash dshot, you're pretty much dead.

Why the hell do you have Air Attune, Elemental Attune, and Aura of Resto?

I Angra I · May 26, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous to try and say that a build is balanced because you are potentially able to run incredibly specific counters to it that would normally be less than favorable to bring against any other build. S:

The fact that you have to bring all these unwanted things (vs any other build) to potentially counter it should make it pretty obvious that something is overpowered about it.

Also that dual attune air build is a billion times worse than the E/Me mind blast ele.

Jeydra · May 26, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by RegulusX

Blind can be removed far easier than distortion. i.e.: Foul Feast, Draw, Mending Touch, Restore Condition, Weapon of Remedy, Dismiss Conditions, Smite Conditions, Antidote Signet.. (need I keep going?) Now, let's take a look at stance removal shall we? (Whirling Axe *must charge adrenaline 1st buddy.. kthnxbai*, Wild Blow *severe drawbacks as war, must staple to Sins, Dervs, RaO's, etc..*, Wild Strike *must have sin + lead attack and build won't be as good in dps..*, and that paragon stance-removing skill *still requires 7 adrenaline buddy, moar than Wh.Axe.. kthnxbai*, what else..?)

It is not so much the stance as it is the blocking, and I think you just ran right into what I was saying. I was going to edit my post to say "perhaps because Mend Touch is staple on Ranger bars, but not Rigor Mortis", and your post supports it. Blind isn't overpowered because you have so much condition removal at your disposal and, crucially, you have it. The weapons to take down E/Me Mind Blasters are also available, it's just that you don't have it for some reason.

As for the "but it's so easy to use!" argument, that one got Assassins nerfed to near death in the first place. I don't agree with its general use because, as I argued elsewhere, taken to the extremes it means the only viable build should be something like 8 Dom Mesmers. But I don't want to get too deep into this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

But not in a short time, not the NPC's or the Lord if you want the character to be useful to the team in any other way.

You can run anything else that can solo all the npc's, but MB eles lose the least and do the most compared to anything else that also needs to be useful elsewhere.
They do it too well.

There are actually builds that can do it. Not so long ago I had this 2v1 scrim where the side with 2 players had to overpower the side with 1 player, who was turtling with a stance Monk. Not easy as we found out ... we had pre-nerf WE Warrior + the Elementalist build above, except subbing out Res Sig for Gale. It took 6 minutes, but we broke through, killing the Monk a couple of times as well. The build churns out massive damage with massive self-heals and massive Blind spam (4s cooldown > Foul Feast btw RegulusX). So long as the attunements are up I'd say the character is useful elsewhere, except of course you can't expect the attunements to stay up since Elemental Attunement especially will get hunted down and removed and the entire build falls apart.

@Angra - Elemental Attunement provides more energy than Mind Blast, just saying, and

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

The fact that you have to bring all these unwanted things (vs any other build) to potentially counter it should make it pretty obvious that something is overpowered about it.

is suspiciously like saying "there should be one build that, played well, can beat every other build".

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Actually, the Mind Blast bar does around the same damage as that bar. Immolate does around the same damage as Lightning Orb and Lightning Hammer.

You sure? Want to try it out in-game?

Xyon the Greatest · May 26, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Thats why they made casters, and unblockable skills!

I Angra I · May 27, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

so bspike is balanced because you can counter it by bringing a bunch of skills that potentially stop it but are bad vs every other build

k

good logic

also taking the time to put up ele attunement and air attunement all the time makes for a lot of downtime. mind blast has infinite energy just like dual attune, the only difference is that it has way less downtime so yeah. also a lot less 2s casts.

Jeydra · May 27, 2009, 02:52 AM // 02:52

And Distortion is a skill that potentially stops one kind of damage (physical) but is very bad vs. every other build (kappaspike, bloodspike, Searing Flames, yada yada - too bad there aren't many other builds that don't involve physical damage at all [all nerfed out of play], so Distortion always sees some use), hence it is balanced. Good logic?

No offense Angra but I don't see your point.

Btw lutz I gave some more thought to what you said about DShotting BFlash to win, and I think it further supports what I've said. Consider.

Suppose there were a Ranger (+ a Monk with only redbar, so he doesn't die) vs. the two Elementalist builds under consideration. For some reason the Ranger only has two skills on his bar - Distracting Shot and Apply Poison. Will he kill either Elementalists? No, because in the case of one he can't DShot anything thanks to Blind, in the case of another he can't DShot anything thanks to Distortion.

So now we give the Ranger a few more skills. Suppose now he has Distracting Shot + Apply Poison + Mend Touch. Will he kill the Dual Attunements Elementalist? It's not certain, especially since BFlash = 3/4s cast and has a shorter recharge than Mend Touch, but one thing is for sure: he has a lot better chance of winning. Will he kill the E/Me Mind Blaster? No, because he still can't get through Distortion.

Then we give the Ranger yet another skill set. Suppose now he has Distracting Shot + Apply Poison + Rigor Mortis. Will he kill the Dual Attunements Elementalist? No because Rigor Mortis does nothing against Blind. Will he kill the E/Me Mind Blaster? Again he has a lot better chance because with Rigor Mortis on all he has to do is DShot Mind Blast (1s cast too is easier to interrupt than 3/4s cast), wherupon the Mind Blast build collapses.

What gives? Since Mend Touch is common on Ranger bars, Blind isn't a problem, and yet since Rigor Mortis is uncommon on Ranger bars, Distortion is a problem. We can go on. Mend Touch is useless against pure hex builds (aside from removing Archer's Pin Down). It's also useless against kappaspike and bloodspike. It's useless against a lot of builds the same way Distortion is, and yet Distortion / Mind Blast template in general is overpowered while Mend Touch isn't. What?

I see no logic in this.

Phe Belladona · May 27, 2009, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Jeydra i hope to god you're a troll

Ensign · May 27, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The problem I have with the template is that it doesn't suffer from threat when it comes to killing NPC's.

Remove longbows and flatbows from the game please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

As an aside, it's my opinion that without outside sources of healing, 2 characters shouldn't be able to take down a Guild Lord without dying unless they're spamming KD's or have Blind/Weakness, and even then ideally one would die and need to be ressed.

Back when this game was played seriously it was very possible for a single character to kill the Guild Lord; there were several tweaks to common templates that could do it in under a minute. I thought it was good for the game for that option to be available.

Levi Treehugger · May 27, 2009, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Rigor Mortis on a ranger bar is pretty unlikely anyways, since it has a energy cost of 10, and doesn't benefit from expertise. And no energy means either no interrupts or no pressure through conditions.

lutz · May 27, 2009, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And Distortion is a skill that potentially stops one kind of damage (physical) but is very bad vs. every other build (kappaspike, bloodspike, Searing Flames, yada yada - too bad there aren't many other builds that don't involve physical damage at all [all nerfed out of play], so Distortion always sees some use), hence it is balanced. Good logic?

No offense Angra but I don't see your point.

Btw lutz I gave some more thought to what you said about DShotting BFlash to win, and I think it further supports what I've said. Consider.

Suppose there were a Ranger (+ a Monk with only redbar, so he doesn't die) vs. the two Elementalist builds under consideration. For some reason the Ranger only has two skills on his bar - Distracting Shot and Apply Poison. Will he kill either Elementalists? No, because in the case of one he can't DShot anything thanks to Blind, in the case of another he can't DShot anything thanks to Distortion.

So now we give the Ranger a few more skills. Suppose now he has Distracting Shot + Apply Poison + Mend Touch. Will he kill the Dual Attunements Elementalist? It's not certain, especially since BFlash = 3/4s cast and has a shorter recharge than Mend Touch, but one thing is for sure: he has a lot better chance of winning. Will he kill the E/Me Mind Blaster? No, because he still can't get through Distortion.

Then we give the Ranger yet another skill set. Suppose now he has Distracting Shot + Apply Poison + Rigor Mortis. Will he kill the Dual Attunements Elementalist? No because Rigor Mortis does nothing against Blind. Will he kill the E/Me Mind Blaster? Again he has a lot better chance because with Rigor Mortis on all he has to do is DShot Mind Blast (1s cast too is easier to interrupt than 3/4s cast), wherupon the Mind Blast build collapses.

What gives? Since Mend Touch is common on Ranger bars, Blind isn't a problem, and yet since Rigor Mortis is uncommon on Ranger bars, Distortion is a problem. We can go on. Mend Touch is useless against pure hex builds (aside from removing Archer's Pin Down). It's also useless against kappaspike and bloodspike. It's useless against a lot of builds the same way Distortion is, and yet Distortion / Mind Blast template in general is overpowered while Mend Touch isn't. What?

I see no logic in this.

Saying Distortion is overpowered on that Mind Blast bar is like saying Shadow Form in PvP would be overpowered if you found some way to reduce its recharge to lower than its duration.

Skills are balanced by their energy cost, recharge, cast time, duration, and a number of other factors. Bypassing this balance with a massive energy engine like Mind Blast allow a ton of skills to be abused. Distortion is just one of them. There are many more. If you were to nerf Distortion, you would need to nerf the huge set of skills that could be abused by Mind Blast's massive energy engine.

Vanquisher · May 27, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Remove longbows and flatbows from the game please.

Maybe I should have been more specific and also said without much downtime? Takes a lot longer for Rangers to knock out NPC's, and they are much more hampered by any form of base defence than an Ele is.

Like I said, I like the idea of Ele's being able to do damage. I'm pretty anti how easy it is for them to just be shit all over in any form of team engagement. But MB's are somewhat similar to old Frag Mesmers in terms of killing power, which I don't like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Back when this game was played seriously it was very possible for a single character to kill the Guild Lord; there were several tweaks to common templates that could do it in under a minute. I thought it was good for the game for that option to be available.

Any outside of whacking a self heal like Heal Sig on them, or having a Linebacker do it (or of course, taking Wastrel's)? In either case, wouldn't they die to full Lord rooms or when trying to knock out a Lord pit?

I can understand wanting casters to do damage. I just think you need to look at what's keeping them from doing decent damage at the stand and fix that, and obviously not allow Mind Blast to be the ridiculous energy engine it is. Like JR mentioned, things that trivialise the balance mechanisms are pretty suspect.

lutz · May 27, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Maybe I should have been more specific and also said without much downtime? Takes a lot longer for Rangers to knock out NPC's, and they are much more hampered by any form of base defence than an Ele is.

Like I said, I like the idea of Ele's being able to do damage. I'm pretty anti how easy it is for them to just be shit all over in any form of team engagement. But MB's are somewhat similar to old Frag Mesmers in terms of killing power, which I don't like.

Any outside of whacking a self heal like Heal Sig on them, or having a Linebacker do it (or of course, taking Wastrel's)? In either case, wouldn't they die to full Lord rooms or when trying to knock out a Lord pit?

I can understand wanting casters to do damage. I just think you need to look at what's keeping them from doing decent damage at the stand and fix that, and obviously not allow Mind Blast to be the ridiculous energy engine it is. Like JR mentioned, things that trivialise the balance mechanisms are pretty suspect.

BA Rangers kill NPCs faster than eles, and have a significantly shorter downtime.

Vanquisher · May 27, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

BA Rangers kill NPCs faster than eles, and have a significantly shorter downtime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquisher

... and they are much more hampered by any form of base defence than an Ele is.

^.

... And I've also talked about Rangers quite a lot before this.

Perhaps I should stress, any change to Mind Blast will be negligable in terms of overall balance unless everything that needs to be looked at/changed is. I have an issue with Mind Blast because of its ease in taking out NPC's with no substantial threat to it as a template, but I have the same problem with BA and Mel Shot Rangers (for a couple of reasons). I think the problem with Mind Blast is compounded in particular by the strength interrupts have in the game (Anything 2c or more is a liability at the main team). Mind Blast also serves as a ridiculous energy engine in far more extreme ways than we've seen in the past, and in each case that engine has been addressed.

There are a lot of things I think should be reworked, but I know it's not going to happen. Still, doesn't top discussion surrounding those things. So while you were right saying talking about individual skills is pointless Ensign, it's still an activity in raising awareness etc.

ajc2123 · May 27, 2009, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Holy role-reversal, Batman! You realize how many ele skills have gotten nerfed because of Mesmers?

Except MOST of those skills are still easily used by Primary Eles. In my experience MB dis eles are only helpful to assist spikes. Granted its actually really good pressure in RA...but...thats RA.

I think Water eles are still better, or mind shockers (I LOVE mind shock)

Regulus X · May 27, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

In order not to abuse distortion, all elite potent energy boosting skills would have to be nerfed as well (i.e.: Lyssa's Aura, E.Prism, Ether Prodigy, etc..). Otherwise, nerfing Distortion would eliminate near-invincibility vs Physical attackers. It's pretty mindless and skilless to click Distortion every5 seconds while spamming m.blast, immolate, meteor, rodgort, etc.. It's also too good for the sake of the game! It forces physical attackers to HAVE TO ignore them! It's just not right! Imho Distortion should be lowered to 50% blockage, or have energy increased to -4/hit. Otherwise, "disables all non-mesmer skills for 10 seconds.." LOL. Either way, E/Me's need some attention to prevent abuse.

I was in RA and some player spammed, "LFM's for TA!" I Said, "I'm game, what professions do you need?" He replied, "All Ele's." I says, "E/Me x 3?" "Yes! LOL! It's the easiest build to run.", he replied. So, what's that tell you all?!

lustnlood · May 27, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

erm... all you guys complaint too much... in RA F*** it you can't do shit against it but in gvg.... where it causes the largest ammount of QQing try taking a para with wild throw maybe? i hurd paras are in the meta again so no need for all the "omg im going to die cos distortion can be used 24/7 stuff". come on guys... use your heads ffs

ajc2123 · May 27, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

I was in RA and some player spammed, "LFM's for TA!" I Said, "I'm game, what professions do you need?" He replied, "All Ele's." I says, "E/Me x 3?" "Yes! LOL! It's the easiest build to run.", he replied. So, what's that tell you all?!

Just because its an easy build doesn't mean it needs attention...

When did GW get all elitist and "If this doesn't take skill then its NOOBISH NERF IT! Only skilled players allowed GRRRRR"

Reminds me of when touchies first came out.

Skilled players can roll these kinds of builds easily anyways...

lutz · May 27, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

In order not to abuse distortion, all elite potent energy boosting skills would have to be nerfed as well (i.e.: Lyssa's Aura, E.Prism, Ether Prodigy, etc..). Otherwise, nerfing Distortion would eliminate near-invincibility vs Physical attackers. It's pretty mindless and skilless to click Distortion every5 seconds while spamming m.blast, immolate, meteor, rodgort, etc.. It's also too good for the sake of the game! It forces physical attackers to HAVE TO ignore them! It's just not right! Imho Distortion should be lowered to 50% blockage, or have energy increased to -4/hit. Otherwise, "disables all non-mesmer skills for 10 seconds.." LOL. Either way, E/Me's need some attention to prevent abuse.

I was in RA and some player spammed, "LFM's for TA!" I Said, "I'm game, what professions do you need?" He replied, "All Ele's." I says, "E/Me x 3?" "Yes! LOL! It's the easiest build to run.", he replied. So, what's that tell you all?!

It tells me that people need to bring more caster shutdown.

kedde · May 27, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I don't get why people refuse to run SB in a TA meta where backfire and vor are so prevalent.
It will make your meta hexteam in TA roll 3 ele's easily.